New Forum Member

[shawnbebout]

Since this is probably where I spend most of my time, I will introduce myself here.
Hello, my name is Shawn, I live about 30 minutes north of Denver, CO. 90% of my camping will be dispersed camping in the Rocky Mountains. I am having some camping withdrawals, as apparently, I didn't do enough camping this summer. I am currently trying to revamp my camping equipment. I have decided to ditch the air matresses for cots. I have woken up one to many time with a deflated matress and am over that. Having been lurking on this site (and some others) I will be using cots, a sleeping pad and sleeping bags. My main concern is that my kids sleep comfortably.
I also want to replace my coleman Red Canyon tent, with a canvas tent. I have camped several times with this and in the colder times, it doesn't heat at all. Plus with its design you lose a bunch of space with the way the ends come up. I was thinking a 12x14 wall tent with a wood stove. That way I can camp earlier in the spring and later in the winter. And my co-campers will be comfortable. Hopefully next summer will be leaving on friday and coming home late sunday or even longer.

that's about it, in a nutshell. Look forward to learning a little more about camping.

[renodesertfox]

Welcome to the campfire, pard! Thanks fer being patient whilst I was out campin! Just so ya know, anyone who signs on here their first to four and not more than six posts are moderated, then you're pretty much on your own. Good luck in your search for a good wood stove. I camp in canvas but my heat is provided by propane and a "The Big Buddy" by Mr. Heater. We also disperse camp a lot too! Thanks again for joining!:D

[Eaglebait Ranch]

Shawn - Suggestion, Pick Reno's brain apart.

Reno is a good 'un for gatherin information about tent camping. Some of his advice drives me insane, because both my wife and I are "minimulist" campers and backpackers. I mean, here he is yackin' about propane stoves, recipes for various vittles which need to be cooked on cast iron pans, and taking along (4, 6, 8, or who knows how many) recliners for relaxin' after going for an afternoon on a lake with his kayak, and I'm trying to figure out ways to make camping and backpacking lighter, smaller, and/or do without.

Susan and I went out on a winter survival training this weekend. We learned how to make an emergency shelter out of whatever Mother Nature has to offer in 4-8 feet of snow. :oSusan was so excited at what she learned, she said to me, "Hey, we don't have to take a tent anymore" - when we winter backpack:o. It took about an hour before she realized what she was thinking, and said she was "joking".

Anyway, welcome to our campfire.............

[arturo7]

Hey, Shawn. Welcome to the forum!

[tplife]

Shawn, welcome to the forum. Congratulations on your decision to ditch the air mattresses, outside of heated enclosures they present health and safety risks due to the hypothermia risk. Unfortunately, cots present the same risk due to the air underneath them. I encourage you to do some research on the safety risks associated with using cots in unheated enclosures. The US military uses them in heated buildings, but issue ThermaRest sleeping pads where there are no heaters. And no, putting a pad on top of your cot makes no difference. The only way to effectively remove the risk is to completely baffle the air space underneath the cot with some kind of open-cell thick padding as insulation. I camp year-round with small children and would never risk their safety with cots or air mattresses - period. Good camping to you and yours!

[shawnbebout]

I understand the R-ratings of the thermarest self inflating matresses, and I understand the end result. I just don't understand how we got there. If the "self-inflating pad" or "open cell" contain air, then what is the big difference between them and air matresses? Wouldn't a "closed cell" or "foam pad" be better, since there is no air pockets? I know this isn't right since the R-ratings of the self inflating are better than the foam. Is it the combination of the air and foam in the thermarest self inflating?
I slept on the cot in the living room with just the normal sheets that I sleep with in my bed and was freezing, so there is a heat sink issue.

[tplife]

I understand the R-ratings of the thermarest self inflating matresses, and I understand the end result. I just don't understand how we got there. If the "self-inflating pad" or "open cell" contain air, then what is the big difference between them and air matresses? Wouldn't a "closed cell" or "foam pad" be better, since there is no air pockets? I know this isn't right since the R-ratings of the self inflating are better than the foam. Is it the combination of the air and foam in the thermarest self inflating?
I slept on the cot in the living room with just the normal sheets that I sleep with in my bed and was freezing, so there is a heat sink issue.

The ThermaRest products have open-cells inside of a sealed air chamber. These cells allow air to move, but each cell is very small and independent of its neighbor as far as thermodynamic heat transfer. Compare this to an air mattress, where there are several very large tubes. These large tubes conduct heat fairly well since they are large and single-celled. As a result, they work to reach equilibrium with the surfaces around them, be they air, ground, or camper. This means of course they get colder and colder until they equal the outside air temp and/or the ground temp - if you're on them you burn up energy keeping warm while you help them try to reach equilibrium with your temp, which they won't unless you reach room temperature! A cot has the same effect, with the air space underneath acting like an air mattress, a large area of air that continues to cool (or heat) until it's the same as the air around it - again, with you on it, you're wasting heat energy just as above. An open or closed-cell foam pad under your sleeping bag is a better way to go if you don't want to shell out around $100 for a ThermaRest pad (or a knockoff version). Since it doesn't have the sandwich-material cover and an air chamber, it has a lower R value than a closed-cell or open-cell ground pad. But it is miles ahead of a cot or air mattress. BTW, I have a USGI cot straight from Iraq, and I love it! But I only use it in heated enclosures or to loll outside in the good ol' summertime.

[shawnbebout]

So, I take it you sleep on the ground? How is sleeping on the ground with an thermarst better than sleeping on a cot with a thermarest? I got a thermarest camper deluxe air matress with an R value of 5 out of 8. Even when I put it on the cot (indoors) I could feel the heat "reflecting" into my back. Which felt good. I think the Lil girl will be good with a cot, the therm a rest, a Eureka kids sleeping bag, with a fleece liner. I am gonna look at the therma rest tail lite XL for me.

[tplife]

Re: New Forum Member

So, I take it you sleep on the ground? How is sleeping on the ground with an thermarst better than sleeping on a cot with a thermarest? I got a thermarest camper deluxe air matress with an R value of 5 out of 8. Even when I put it on the cot (indoors) I could feel the heat "reflecting" into my back. Which felt good. I think the Lil girl will be good with a cot, the therm a rest, a Eureka kids sleeping bag, with a fleece liner. I am gonna look at the therma rest tail lite XL for me.

I sleep on the ground, over a ThermaRest pad (we have 4). In your example, the cot has an empty air space underneath, and the thermarest pad over the cot slows the interaction until it reaches the bottom of the pad - then it hits the empty air space underneath. Because air conducts heat much better than a solid, you're still sleeping over a heat sink - even with the pad under the cot. Would you be warmer in the air or on the ground? On the ground, because the transfer of your heat to the ground and the ground cold to you takes longer than in the open air. That's why a pad on a cot slows, but doesn't prevent, the heat sink effect. No differently than sleeping on a sleeping bag on your cot - the bag slows, but doesn't stop the transfer of heat from the air space under neath to you and the bag. It takes the ground a lot longer to heat or cool than does the air - forget the cot altogether. It's your choice, but I'd never put my family on pads over cots except in the warmest summer months or in a heated enclosure. Ebay is a good place to buy new-in-the-box sleeping bags and pads, and if you buy a quality down bag in the adult size for your child they'll never need a new bag as they grow.

[shawnbebout]

Re: New Forum Member

Okay, I understand what you are saying. Anyways, I found a store that sells the Military surplus Thermarests. Has the Cascade design brand on it. Even has the Army contract #. I have picked up 4 sleeping pads already. And I purchased a new tent on Christmas Eve to boot. I picked out a 12x14 canvas wall tent. Due to poor customer service at one location, the other store location threw in a M1941 potbelly stove for $50. It is also a military surplus stove, dated 1952, about the time of the Korean War. I don't like to call them "conflicts", cause lets face it war is war no matter what you call it. So I think the kids will be fine in a tent with a heater, cots and thermarests. Plus there will be gear stored under the cots to reduce air flow. So now, I just have to pick a few more items for the girl and I will be set to go camping this year. I would try and camp out for New Year's Eve/Day, but I am "on call" so I have to stay close to home. And since there is no cell service in the Colorado Rockies, I can't go.

[suzridesahog]

Re: New Forum Member

tplife, thank you for your detailed explanation of why not to sleep on a cot vs. a pad. My son is interested in cold weather camping and the expense of a Thermarest pad had made me uneasy. Do you have a reccomendation of a good knock off or compatible pad? Thanks in advance!