Water proof tupperware

[toedtoes]

Re: Water proof tupperware

It's not his opinion that is the problem - it's the attitude and the insults he throws when others don't agree with him.

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Water proof tupperware

It's not his opinion that is the problem - it's the attitude and the insults he throws when others don't agree with him.

Yeah, I've experienced that with another forum member.

[tplife]

Re: Water proof tupperware

Dang, I dont get right back, and you guys cover the topic.

I would simply say, the theory sounds good on paper, but if it hasnt specificaly been done hands on with a cooler of food/ice/water, then its theory, not matter how much you believe it is fact that it should be one certain way.

My point was, the ice isnt the main objective, keeping the food cool for a longer period is. Water mass holds temp, it doesnt have to be frozen to keep food below a safe temp. Lakes take much longer to warm than air does. Opening the cooler say, 6-8 times a day in the experiment, take stuff out, put it back, that cool air has been disturbed and dispersed....my real life experience, having lived out of coolers literally for several years, is that the food stays colder longer when the water is left in.

A PhD (biology) friend often commented about how people can be educated, but it doesnt mean they have common sense or have a good understanding of how real world stuff works.

Thanks for not taking it personally! No theories were in my post, it's proven facts and older than dirt. No insults were made nor intended. I listed the classic experiment to prove that the ice lasts longer when it's in the air and not underwater, easy to do and no special equipment required. Heat transfers to equilibrium: solid, gas, liquid. Remove the liquid to preserve the ice. The air makes it melt a lot slower than water does. We all live out of coolers when we're camping. Here in the Southwest, we NEED that ice to last longer and keep our food cold.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mo/thereq.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_5135067_water-melt-ice.html

Everyone should question and experiment to gain knowledge, it got us out of the caves and closer to the stars...

[toedtoes]

Re: Water proof tupperware

tplife - what others are saying is that it isn't the preservation of ice that is the goal, it's the keeping of food at a lower temperature. While removing the water from the cooler preserves the ice longer, there is no mention as to how well that ice-only environment keeps the food cold in your arguments. Folks are pointing out that in practice, removing the water causes the FOOD to warm up faster than if the water remains.

[tplife]

Re: Water proof tupperware

In practice, substances follow specific interaction in relation to their temperature and conductivity. Removing the water simply makes the ice melt faster, that's why if you want fast cooling you combine water and ice, but if you want the ice to last you remove the water: ice melts much slower in air than in water, and the water draws heat through the cooler walls at a much faster rate than air or ice. Here's a decent example:

Water is 24.5 times more conductive than air
The idea is that water will conduct heat energy throughout the cooler much more effectively than air. This means that water will conduct heat energy from the leaks and seams in the cooler to the ice more effectively than air.

Say we have two hypothetical coolers, Cooler A and Cooler B. Both leak heat at the same rate, and both started with a identical large block of ice in it, and equal air temperature occupying the rest of the cooler. Every hour you drain the water from A, and leave it in B. For the first hour they both have the same amount of water and the same amount of ice, and then you drain the water from A. Now, in the second hour because the water left in B conducts heat from the walls to the ice faster than the air in A, more of B's ice will melt than of A's ice.

Clearly, B's ice will be completely melted before A's ice is. Let's call the moment that ice B completely melts 'meltB'. At meltB ice A has x percent of its original mass remaining.

We can all agree that at meltB there is less heat energy in cooler B than in cooler A, since you've been replacing things in cooler A with other things that had more heat energy (replacing cool water with air temperature air).

Where it gets tricky is that after meltB, the heat energy in cooler B will increase faster than the heat energy in cooler A because of all that water conducting heat from the walls.

So from start until meltB, A gains energy faster than B, but after meltB B gains energy faster than A.




What this all comes down to is the exact numbers. If you want to eat your food at time a or b you are better off with cooler B, but if you want to eat your feed at time c or d you are better off with Cooler B.

As for how to calculate meltB, I have no idea. So I guess its somewhat impossible to figure out.

EDIT:

To clarify, the key point here is that different parts of the cooler are different temperatures. The wall is warmer than the area immediately around the ice. However, if the cooler is full of water, the water brings heat energy from the wall to the ice much more effectively than air would.

So the coolers leak at the same rate, meaning the walls gain energy from the outside at the same rate. However, if there is no water, the walls gaining energy does not necessarily mean that the ice will gain that energy and melt immediately. It will take time for that energy to get to the ice, and the time it takes depends on the medium the energy transfers through.

In summary, walls gain energy at same rate, ice in the middle does NOT gain energy at the same rate because of what is between them and the walls.

Folks fall into categories, drainers (like myself) and retainers (icemen celebrate them).

[toedtoes]

Re: Water proof tupperware

And nowhere in your entire post have you mentioned how the FOOD reacts to the ice/air or ice/water combination.

We get it - ice melts faster with water than without. But, how does the FOOD react????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

[tplife]

Re: Water proof tupperware

Food is a solid component inside the cooler, like the solid ice or solid walls of the cooler. By nature the food, ice, water, air, and cooler walls will seek equilibrium by exchanging heat. Liquid (melted water) transfers the heat at the highest rate, followed by gas (air) and then the slowest is the solid (ice or food or cooler walls). Now if only I could explain that little clicking sound forward of my front cylinder on the Road King.

[toedtoes]

Re: Water proof tupperware

Sure. But in a cooler, the air temperature is WARMER than the water temperature. Unless you have enough ice to fully submerge/cover the food, the food will be touching either air or water. There will be a greater difference of temperature between the cold food and the air versus the cold food and the water. The greater the temperature difference, the greater the heat exchange - therefore the quicker the food loses its cold.

[NYCgrrl]

Re: Water proof tupperware

Bumping this thread up because it's a great topic that invariably comes up for first time campers and those who have been out and about but want to up their game, no matter whether they do or don't drain their cooler.

I did find a plastic storage box last year to put my fresh veggies and some of my dairy goods in and it dinna disintegrate over the 3 week period I used it. Also made the refrigerator cooler more organized. Still need to find a something to store the fresh milk in (I store it in the bev cooler) since it's occasional bobbing annoys me, LOL.

Oh and where am I in the drain/don't drain camp?

Depends on what's in the cooler. Beverages nevah get drained on my end until the last possible moment. Prolly due to the amt of times it's opened in a day I can't keep bulk ice whether purchased or home made in quart bottles longer than 3-4 days no matter what cooler I use.

My refrigerator cooler gets the least amt of ice cubes but generally the same amt of frozen quart bottles (1 in every corner and 1-2 in the center) as my freezer cooler; it is drained frequently. Items at the bottom of this cooler still have ice crystals on em at the end of the trip probably due to the still mostly frozen qt bottles laying at the bottom on their sides.

My freezer cooler gets the most ice of both types and is drained and iced daily. On the last days I have to stop putting new ice in order to allow the foods to defrost.

The above are my recollections from last year's 3 week trip and if I can remember my password from this site (browser storage makes ya stupid) I'll do at least a weekly update on my ice situation.

[wecamp04]

Re: Water proof tupperware

NYCGurrl I do the same also it works for us .I didn't read through all the posts but if we have something we don't any water in we put it in zip lock bags and then put it in a plastic tub of somekind

[Happy Joe]

Re: Water proof tupperware

We too are ziplock people.
When possible we do bock ice (or frozen water in jugs); they last better/ longer than cubes...
There is normally not much room for containers, its ziplocks on top of cans... I try to drain any excess water (used to be more frequent when we used cubes and/or cheap milk/water jugs, since going to frozen sunny D containers it really hasn't been necessary.


I did get tired of ice only lasting for 3 days or so (cheap modern coolers) and accumulated a portable fridge (kind of got the cart ahead of the horse on this one because a deal sprang up; need to get a much bigger battery to keep the fridge running).


Enjoy!

[NYCgrrl]

Re: Water proof tupperware

We too are ziplock people.
When possible we do bock ice (or frozen water in jugs); they last better/ longer than cubes...
There is normally not much room for containers, its ziplocks on top of cans... I try to drain any excess water (used to be more frequent when we used cubes and/or cheap milk/water jugs, since going to frozen sunny D containers it really hasn't been necessary.


I did get tired of ice only lasting for 3 days or so (cheap modern coolers) and accumulated a portable fridge (kind of got the cart ahead of the horse on this one because a deal sprang up; need to get a much bigger battery to keep the fridge running).


Enjoy!

I think the one thing I did absolutely right when I started camping again was ditch my "who cares how much insulation the cooler has since I'm only using it for one day picnic" Thermos cooler.

Bought a 50 odd qt Coleman Xtreme 6 day cooler via CL and have never regretted the purchase.
Sometimes I use it as a fridge, other times as a freezer; depends on how much of whatever needs to go in each cooler.
Long trips it becomes the refrigerator; short trips I divide it in half with an IKEA plastic cutting board and use it as a fridge/freezer. Just don't think you won't need to bring another cutting board- serious DUHHH moment my first time using it as a divider:he:.

Learning the lesson of the Xtreme line, I bought another larger one (100 qt) but could only find a 5 day on sale. Still worthy and a great bang for the buck although since I tend to use the big 'un as a freezer on long trips, wish the 100 was a 6 day and the 50 qt @ 5 day.

My beverage cooler is still a hunk o junk (IMO) Igloo MaxiCold, whose only true benefit is it's tall enough for wine bottles. Maybe, Costco, used it's own specs to sell it. Don't know but let's just say that I'm not knocking myself down to buy another cooler from this line.
Silly drain locale, and badly placed wheels for a small cooler that should actually be mobile. As for it's telescoping handle I nevah trust it to hold the weight of a full load.
So glad I got that off my chest.

[NYCgrrl]

Re: Water proof tupperware

NYCGurrl I do the same also it works for us .I didn't read through all the posts but if we have something we don't any water in we put it in zip lock bags and then put it in a plastic tub of somekind

Freezing a carton of eggs inadvertently taught me soooo much about how sometimes too cold ain't a good thing. Yeah, that can happen when ya bury the carton too far into the cooler, LOL. Oh and styrofoam egg containers hold up much longer than the card board versions. Another sadly DUH moment.

[tplife]

Re: Water proof tupperware

Sure. But in a cooler, the air temperature is WARMER than the water temperature. Unless you have enough ice to fully submerge/cover the food, the food will be touching either air or water. There will be a greater difference of temperature between the cold food and the air versus the cold food and the water. The greater the temperature difference, the greater the heat exchange - therefore the quicker the food loses its cold.

Ice is slowest heat exchanger (solid) then air (gas), then water (liquid). Get rid of the water and the ice lasts longer as it insulates itself with a thin layer of water on the outside surface. The air transfers heat slower than liquid, so you slow the rate of the ice melting, keeping the contents at equilibrium (closer to the temperature of the ice). If you like buying ice on a regular basis, the ice will melt even faster if you put it inside a container and don't remove the water. You can discover the law and experiments to prove it to yourself in about two minutes on Google!