Back to White Gas

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

I dabbled in propane but for car camping white gas/dual fuel is the way to go. Backpacking is a whole different story - alcohol or Esbit works for me there. I have a White Box stove that really does the trick for alcohol, and at $20 it's way cheaper than a Caldera Cone. Not that I wouldn't want the CC Ti-Tri - that's a really versatile setup.

I think after you use white gas and alcohol more extensively, you will find that you get many more meals out of a pint of white gas than you do from alcohol. Part of the reason is that white gas provides more BTU. A more significant reason is because white gas stoves have better flame control which equals to more efficient fuel usage

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Back to White Gas

What's the lightest WG stove you've found? There is a comparison of fuels on the BPL forums - I don't know of any UL backpackers who use white gas any more. My stove (including windscreen) weighs in at two ounces - I could get an Esbit stove that weighs even less. That fuel is kinda pricey though. It would have to be a pretty long trip for the difference in fuel consumption to make up for the difference in stove weight. I guess I could experiment with water boiling times/fuel consumption and post the results here.

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Back to White Gas

P.S. The Caldera Cone is a extremely efficient design.

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

What's the lightest WG stove you've found? There is a comparison of fuels on the BPL forums - I don't know of any UL backpackers who use white gas any more. My stove (including windscreen) weighs in at two ounces - I could get an Esbit stove that weighs even less. That fuel is kinda pricey though. It would have to be a pretty long trip for the difference in fuel consumption to make up for the difference in stove weight. I guess I could experiment with water boiling times/fuel consumption and post the results here.

There is nothing new about alcohol stoves or the fuel. Even the stove technology remains largely the same as it was in 1900. Even then, backpackers and explorers opted for lightweight gasoline stoves. What do modern hikers know that explorers and hikers of the past did not know? Even after experimenting with alcohol stoves extensively myself, it is a wonderment to me that they have become so popular.

I am starting to realize that most of the ultra-lite folks only go out for one or two days. I also notice that most/all the typical meals are freeze dried and only need boiling water

I also notice that even when the ultra-lite folks go in groups, they pack as if they are going solo and share almost nothing. They cook solo, tent solo, etc. There is no sharing/saving of weight

In these circumstances, alcohol stoves might make sense. They won't notice a fuel savings from white gas because they aren't really out long enough to use much fuel. There is no need to be more creative with menus because cost, variety, nutrition, and calorie intake are not necessary.

For one or two day trips where you are mostly boiling instead of cooking, the only efficiency you might notice with a liquid fuel stove would be time

Realistically, under the conditions described above, you might be better off burning Vaseline mixed with cotton in an old tuna can. Gram for gram, cm2 per cm2, you would get better burn time and better BTU from the Vaseline than alcohol and you don't have to worry about it spilling

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Back to White Gas

I am starting to realize that most of the ultra-lite folks only go out for one or two days. I also notice that most/all the typical meals are freeze dried and only need boiling water

I also notice that even when the ultra-lite folks go in groups, they pack as if they are going solo and share almost nothing. They cook solo, tent solo, etc. There is no sharing/saving of weight

Um nope. Now me, I'm mostly a boiled water person when I pack. That's the lightest way to go. But your others assertions are off the mark. MOST UL packers are out for a week or so, sometimes 3 months or more, but we DO take frequent day/weekend trips to tune our packs and our skillset. Plus, just to get out. UL packing is more about technique than equipment, although choosing the right equipment is important, and frequently expensive, as UL gear is mostly made by cottage industry rather then big outfitters like REI.

MOST UL packers either go solo or with a spouse. Really, I don't know where you are coming from on the group thing, except I suppose most of us don't own gear for 4 people.

I sense you don't agree with the UL philosophy, and that's OK. At my age I would rather pack 20 lbs for a week-long hike than 40 or 50. You young pups can hump as much gear as you want. I see military guys who test their Tactical Rucks with fire extinguishers, etc., to see how much they can carry. I met a guy who was hiking with a 70lb pack weight. He was in shape, let me tell you! He was a Mountain Ranger from Ireland. Fenn O'Shawnessy, I can still remember his name. I served him a free meal when he wandered into the restaurant I was managing at the time.

Anyway, you can have your gas stove and I'll take mine. Before you diss the UL philosphy you really should spend some time over at BPL. It was a real eye opener for me. Really, a change in lifestyle. But hey! Pack whatever works for you. Nobody owns just ONE stove. Or tent. Or sleeping bag...

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

Um nope. Now me, I'm mostly a boiled water person when I pack. That's the lightest way to go. But your others assertions are off the mark. MOST UL packers are out for a week or so, sometimes 3 months or more, but we DO take frequent day/weekend trips to tune our packs and our skillset. Plus, just to get out. UL packing is more about technique than equipment, although choosing the right equipment is important, and frequently expensive, as UL gear is mostly made by cottage industry rather then big outfitters like REI.

MOST UL packers either go solo or with a spouse. Really, I don't know where you are coming from on the group thing, except I suppose most of us don't own gear for 4 people.

I sense you don't agree with the UL philosophy, and that's OK. At my age I would rather pack 20 lbs for a week-long hike than 40 or 50. You young pups can hump as much gear as you want. I see military guys who test their Tactical Rucks with fire extinguishers, etc., to see how much they can carry. I met a guy who was hiking with a 70lb pack weight. He was in shape, let me tell you! He was a Mountain Ranger from Ireland. Fenn O'Shawnessy, I can still remember his name. I served him a free meal when he wandered into the restaurant I was managing at the time.

Anyway, you can have your gas stove and I'll take mine. Before you diss the UL philosphy you really should spend some time over at BPL. It was a real eye opener for me. Really, a change in lifestyle. But hey! Pack whatever works for you. Nobody owns just ONE stove. Or tent. Or sleeping bag...

Irate Morman, you sound irate

Sorry, I did not realize that most ultra-lite backpackers go on hikes longer than 3 months..... Or maybe at least a week as you explain. That is a breed of ultra-lite camper outside my circles and I did not know that the weekender UL backpackers are in the minority - until I read your post, of course.

Maybe I am not meeting the typical Ultra-lite backpackers because most of them are on extended backpacking trips!

Peace Irate Morman. Have a sip of alcohol and then light up your stove and carry on

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Back to White Gas

What I object to is your characterization of UL backpackers as lightweights, pun intended. As a group we are very serious about our craft. I just think you have a distorted opinion of the UL backpacker as some kind of weekend warrior or something. , when the exact opposite it true. If you meet nobody but gearheads on the trail then I understand. There are plenty of folks who have more money than sense. You usually lose them a couple of days past the trailhead. IF you make it that far. You conventional guys can carry as much weight as you wish and slog out a 10 mile day. I'm not in the 30 mile camp - I prefer to enjoy the trek - but 20 miles is an easy day for this 50+ hiker. Really, you are speaking from not knowing the UL community at ALL. Frankly it is insulting. THAT is what makes me irate.

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

What I object to is your characterization of UL backpackers as lightweights, pun intended. As a group we are very serious about our craft. I just think you have a distorted opinion of the UL backpacker as some kind of weekend warrior or something. , when the exact opposite it true. If you meet nobody but gearheads on the trail then I understand. There are plenty of folks who have more money than sense. You usually lose them a couple of days past the trailhead. IF you make it that far. You conventional guys can carry as much weight as you wish and slog out a 10 mile day. I'm not in the 30 mile camp - I prefer to enjoy the trek - but 20 miles is an easy day for this 50+ hiker. Really, you are speaking from not knowing the UL community at ALL. Frankly it is insulting. THAT is what makes me irate.

OK, OK, Irate Morman let's not get all worked up about this. "lighten up" so to speak. Ha ha ha. This is all for fun, remember. I don't think packing light is a formal political group. I am surprised and encouraged that there is even such a thing as the "ultra lite community" Every backpacker tries to go as light as they can afford or as light as they feel safe for the conditions they will meet. I am not even sure what the line of demarcation is that puts someone in the "ultra lite" group vs. the.... whatever it is called "heavy haulers"(?) group.

On this thread, we are talking about stoves and fuel. I just said that in my experience with alcohol stoves and my circle of friends who go ultra lite and go with alcohol tend to be weekenders. I admit that my circle of friends that go ultra lite is a small group. My group of friends that gets their asssses off the couch to do any backpacking is a very small group. Although in previous decades, my friends and I have gone on the multi-week trips you mention in your posts,

I do not have even one friend anymore who goes for backpacking for more than five days at a time. In fact, among my friends, I am the only person who actively goes backpacking for more than a few days at a time and I do it alone because I cannot get my friends to go. I do have friends who TALK ABOUT WANTING TO GO on extended backpacking trips, but none of them actually do it. You are lucky that at 50+ years old that most of your friends regularly backpack for more than a week or even 3 months or more. I am lucky to get any of my old backpacking friends to even go backpacking for a weekend. Most of my friends won't take that much time off work or away from family. I am not seeing many young people picking up this activity although they must be out there somewhere, so hearing from you that there is a population of backpackers who go out for weeks at a time is very encouraging to me. You are lucky. Ultra-lite, heavy-haulers, alcohol, gas, who cares really? I am just glad to know people are getting out there and pushing the dirt back into the trails with the soles of their boots.

So, Peace, friend. Use your alcohol stove with joy. I have an extended collection of alcohol stoves from around the world that I used for awhile and retired to the back shelves of my camping storage room when I went back to petrol based fuels. Some day, I will post photos of these often odd and interesting contraptions on CampingForums.com

[markkee]

Re: Back to White Gas

I'm still pretty angry with Coleman for doing away with their Powermax fuel. I finally wound up selling off the supply I had left because I didn't want to be stuck with a nice stove and no proper fuel to run it. The canisters were tall and slender and made of aluminum, making them easy to pack and recycle. They also didn't seem to be affected by cold - I only had one instance in over ten years when I couldn't get a burner lit and that was due to a generator that needed to be replaced. They did come out with an adapter to run the more common fuel canisters, but that setup was just too clunky and required using the cans inverted, meaning sucking down fuel.

Going to replace the Powermax setup, I looked at the Whisperlite but went with the Windpro instead. I'm with Bigdog - I like the convenience of pressurized fuel and not having to worry about pumping up the stove and playing around with liquid fuel. My Coleman 3-burner, 2-burner and single burner gas stoves are long gone. If I was still backpacking, I think my next step for going simple and small would have been a collapsible wood stove.

Mac, when I back pack, I still use the old fashioned MSR white gas powered stove. Additionally, I carried a lightweight wood burning stove and could not use it per national forest law at higher elevations. The wood stoves weight about 11 ounces and it works great! It's an Emberlit.

[MacGyver]

Re: Back to White Gas

It's an Emberlit.

I've been looking at the Emberlits ever since PhilR brought them to my attention. I keep holding off because of the soot woodburners leave on pots. Because of the way I pack just about everything into one case, I figure I'd wind up with soot on everything, no matter what steps I take to prevent it. They definitely look great for the minimalist, and who can argue with free fuel? But, for gadget and comfort people like myself, they just don't quite cut it. If it ever came down to my needing to use wood, I'd just as soon MacGyver some rocks and maybe some coat hangers into a usable stove.

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

I've been looking at the Emberlits ever since PhilR brought them to my attention. I keep holding off because of the soot woodburners leave on pots. Because of the way I pack just about everything into one case, I figure I'd wind up with soot on everything, no matter what steps I take to prevent it. They definitely look great for the minimalist, and who can argue with free fuel? But, for gadget and comfort people like myself, they just don't quite cut it. If it ever came down to my needing to use wood, I'd just as soon MacGyver some rocks and maybe some coat hangers into a usable stove.

I HAVE to use wood here in the winter because the fuel consumption to turn snow to boiling water is astronomical. It would be difficult to pack in enough gas to fulfill the need

Of course, you know the old Boyscout trick of coating the pots with soap before you use them. Another easy solution is to bring a plastic shopping bag to pack your dirty pots. When You get home, spray the pots with BBQ grill cleaner and put the pots in the dishwasher. Works great without elbow grease

The best solution, however, might be to do nothing at all. I find that the blackened pots absorb heat faster and food cooks quicker when you use blackened sooty pots

[coloradowalt]

Re: Back to White Gas

Mike, you could use cast iron; already black.... and think of the exercise potential :-)

[Mike]

Re: Back to White Gas

Mike, you could use cast iron; already black.... and think of the exercise potential :-)

Ya know, I have actually done that - schlepping cast iron on my back and on a sled - and decided not to make a habit of it.