Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

[MC272]

Hey everyone,

Just want to see if anyone has any opinions on this topic, it seems like it would be something that gets talked about all the time but I have only been able to find a few select articles on the topic and seemingly no mention of it on this forum.

I began researching the use of potentially harmful chemicals in tents after I went to buy one yesterday that had this warning on it: "WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm". At first I assumed this was a super intensely worded warning that likely wouldn't be that big a deal, but after researching it a bit it seems like it likely is a bigger deal. It appears almost all tents made in the US are manufactured with flame retardant chemicals, for fairly sketchy and seemingly not worthwhile reasons (as was described in some Chicago Tribune articles), and according to the research I've found (contrary to what a representative from Coleman told me on the phone today) these chemicals do rub off on your skin when you handle the tents, and the chemicals may also be in the air when inside the tent. Here are some of the articles I'm referring to:

http://www.alternet.org/personal-hea...xic-experience


http://otherwords.org/playing-toxic-...le-with-tents/



http://www.environmentalhealthnews.o...dants-in-tents



http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ez400185y


I'm mainly wondering if this has been a concern of the camping community in the US in any large way, if not then why, and if so does anyone have recommendations on any companies to purchase (affordable) non-chemically treated tents from (likely from outside the US or from smaller tent manufacturers within the country)? I have found a couple companies that don't use the FR chemicals (Sierra Designs sells the Tensegrity Elite tents and The Tent Lab makes it a point to not use the chemicals: http://thetentlab.com/MoonLightTents/FR.html - but these tents are well out of my price range unfortunately). Would like to purchase a 4 person tent in the $100-200 range. Any help/insight on this topic would be much appreciated, thanks!

[JohnJohn]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

Interesting discussion. I have never thought of this. I'm interested as to what others have to say.

[terasec]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

That california clause is on alot of products
i recently bought a youth bow for my son and it had that clause
ca listed a bunch of chemicals as carcigenic and products must display that clause
as for fire retardant most fabrics whether home furnishings or apparel must be fire retardant
they will melt but not flame up

[toedtoes]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

As Terasec mentions, that warning is on many many things per California law. As a Californian, it is something that I have learned to use to make an informed decision on my purchasing, but that I don't allow to make my decision for me. Walk into any California Cost Plus and you will see that warning on almost every shelf - it's pretty much a given with imported goods. Only you can make the decision as to whether the risk of any such item is acceptable or not for YOU and YOUR FAMILY. Risk is a very personal choice - as is the possible guilt for making a choice that you might later decide was faulty.

Fire retardant is pretty much a given in the U.S. - specifically with items that are used for sleeping (mattresses, bed linens, night clothes, etc.). If you are looking for gear without it, you might try purchasing from Canadian companies. You will lose the free shipping, but I believe there are no restrictions on buying non-fire retardant items from outside the U.S. except when it comes to children's sleepwear (those appear to be banned from being commercially shipped to the U.S. - e.g., you could go to Canada and buy the pajamas and bring them back over the border, but you can't buy them online and have them shipped to a U.S. address).

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

I dunno. I have never paid the least attention to such things. Eat right, exercise - die anyway. I don't use flames in my tent, FWIW. And Mississippi is a LONG way from the People's Republic of Kalifornia. I guess maybe there are warnings on there somewhere stating that misusing my tent can result in DEATH. Geez. You idiot-proof your product and somebody invents a new form of idiot.

[toedtoes]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

Ever read a Duraflame log label? It states "Warning: flammable"...

But, in the end, it doesn't hurt me to have the warning and if it saves some kid from his/her idiot parents who thought the log wasn't flammable, then it's fine by me.

I just consider it all information. Whether I choose to avoid a product or not due to that information is up to me. I see nothing wrong with the info being there so folks can make their own choices. But, I would rather be given the information to make an informed choice myself rather than have someone else make that choice for me behind my back.

[James.]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

As I understand it the some shortsighted lawmakers in California figured that they were going to save the world from itself and got a law passed that anything sold in california that contained one of the chemicals on their list had to have that warning on it. What they didn't realize is just how common that stuff is. The warning became a joke (at least here in neighboring Arizona) because its unavoidable. Just written off as one of those crazy californian things

[MC272]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

Hey everyone, I very much appreciate you all taking the time to respond to my questions here in this thread. I never really expected anyone to look much at the articles I linked to in my original post, but I have a feeling if more of you had done so your answers would likely have been different. I really didn't have any of my questions answered so I'm going to attempt to define my questions a bit by responding to some of the things you guys said, and will try and use quotes from those articles and results from those studies I listed in response. Don't know if you'll ever even see this, but maybe it will at least ignite further discussion into the topic with others.

Just as a disclaimer, I'm not an expert in this field by any means, so if I misrepresent some facts here please point that out to me, but I'm basically just going to be quoting information from published studies and articles, so it should all be fairly straight forward.

It seems one of the main points you guys were trying to make was that things such as this California warning on chemicals in the product causing cancer are just information that the consumer can use to help make his or her purchasing decisions with, and that that's a good thing. Toedtoes said it best with these two quotes:

Only you can make the decision as to whether the risk of any such item is acceptable or not for YOU and YOUR FAMILY

I just consider it all information. Whether I choose to avoid a product or not due to that information is up to me. I see nothing wrong with the info being there so folks can make their own choices. But, I would rather be given the information to make an informed choice myself rather than have someone else make that choice for me behind my back.

The problem is that this California warning

1.) does not give me any information on what specific chemicals in the product are dangerous, or any information on how I will or won't be exposed to those chemicals (the law says that all companies have to do is say that they don't meet that California guideline, they are not required to divulge what the chemicals are or how they are exposed to people, I've called 2 different tent companies so far and both would not tell me what the harmful chemicals were) so indeed I cannot really make an informed choice. Also,

2.) Even if I could figure out what the dangers are or aren't, yes I can choose to avoid that product, but I can not choose to avoid buying a product, in this case a tent, that does not have those potentially dangerous chemicals used in manufacturing it. So in essence I don't really have a choice in this country currently when it comes to buying a tent. If I went to Dick's sporting goods and one aisle was full of tents with flame retardants (and consequently those tents would have the cancer warnings listed on them), and a different aisle was full of tents that were without flame retardants, then yes I could just choose the tents with no chemicals and in the end those warnings would just be useful information I used in my purchasing decisions. The issue is that atleast 7 different states (MA, NY, NJ, LA, MN, MI, and CA) all have laws that require products to withstand exposure to flame that requires the need to use flame retardant chemicals, even though those chemicals have been proven to cause cancer and birth defects. So sure, a tent manufacturer can certainly decide to manufacture tents without flame retardant chemicals, but then they won't be able to sell tents in any of those 7 states, so (minus those 2 smaller companies I have found, there may be more) every tent manufacturer in the US decides to use these chemicals.

These same (and many very similar) flame retardant chemicals have already been outlawed for use in furniture (a whole movie was produced on this topic which aired on HBO a few years ago, check www.toxichotseat.com), mattresses, electronics, just a few weeks ago Washington state outlawed 5 more flame retardant chemicals being used in children's toys and furniture. Some of these chemicals have been phased out of tents in the last decade as well because of their strong correlation to cancer and birth defects (DecaBDE and chlorinated-tris). What apparently ends up happening is once the necessary research is done into what chemicals are actually being used in the tents and other products and we discover that they are dangerous, those companies just switch to a chemical cousin of those chemicals, which then is again phased out or outlawed once that chemical is linked to health issues. They call it "Toxic Whack-a-Mole".

The tent manufacturers seem to know the chemicals are dangerous and would likely not use them, but these old laws are still in place, largely due to the greed on large corporations. The Chicago Tribune published a series of articles on this exposing the issues:

"In 2012, the Chicago Tribune published an investigative series about flame retardants, uncovering “a decades-long campaign of deception that has loaded the furniture and electronics in American homes with pounds of toxic chemicals linked to cancer, neurological deficits, developmental problems and impaired fertility.”

The series chronicled phony testimony by a doctor who serves as a “star witness” for the chemical companies, described how the cigarette lobby got the fire marshals on their side, and detailed exactly how the chemical industry misrepresented data to make it appear like flame retardants saved more lives than they actually did.

“The tactics started with Big Tobacco, which wanted to shift focus away from cigarettes as the cause of fire deaths, and continued as chemical companies worked to preserve a lucrative market for their products, according to a Tribune review of thousands of government, scientific and internal industry documents,” the Trib reported."

This post is becoming too long to post in one reply, so I will continue it in the next one...

[toedtoes]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

I'm not really sold on the links you've provided. None have any recognized scientific organization providing data. One site has an article explaining how it's impossible to get an Rx of Norco filled because of government bureaucracy based on one person's vent - I can say that I have not only had Norco filled without issue (multiple times - torn rotator cuff and kidney stone), but I have had 2 other heavy duty scheduled narcotic pain relievers prescribed and filled without issue. Several of the other articles had me saying "oh brother" at their gloom and doom.

The series chronicled phony testimony by a doctor who serves as a “star witness” for the chemical companies, described how the cigarette lobby got the fire marshals on their side, and detailed exactly how the chemical industry misrepresented data to make it appear like flame retardants saved more lives than they actually did.

“The tactics started with Big Tobacco, which wanted to shift focus away from cigarettes as the cause of fire deaths, and continued as chemical companies worked to preserve a lucrative market for their products, according to a Tribune review of thousands of government, scientific and internal industry documents,” the Trib reported."

Not really getting this argument. When a house goes up in flames because of a dropped cigarette and a sleeping child dies because the fire catches on to the child's PJs and lights up, the CIGARETTE caused the death. Adding fire retardant to the PJs doesn't eliminate the cause of the fire and deaths from the cigarette - all it does is potentially give rescuers extra time to get that child out of harm's way before he/she is engulfed in flames.


As I said before, all this information is good as it lets YOU make decisions for yourself and your family that you are comfortable with. But none of it is gospel and some of it is simply end of the world doom and gloom.

If you want camping gear without fire retardants, look at buying the gear from other countries. Canada and Mexico have different laws regarding these things, check out Amazon.ca for tents - you won't get free shipping, but they will ship to the U.S. (unless there is a law specifically banning that item from crossing the border - children's PJs are banned, but adult PJs are not).

[MC272]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

This is the continuation of my last post...

So as for the reasoning behind the chemicals being used, that should now be fairly apparent. The question I had after all this was sure, there are dangerous chemicals being used in the manufacture of tents, but can I actually be exposed to these dangerous chemicals? A representative from Coleman told me on the phone that I'd have to "eat it" to be exposed. After doing some research online I found multiple studies that were conducted to see if the chemicals rubbed off on skin, and the answer seems to be a resounding yes. Here are some quotes from two of those fairly recent studies:

"The researchers also checked the hands of 20 volunteers before and after setting up tents. The levels of organophosphate flame retardants on the skin were significantly higher after set-up than before."

"Furthermore, we investigated potential exposure by collecting paired samples of tent wipes and hand wipes from 27 individuals after tent setup. Of the 11 fabric samples analyzed, 10 contained flame retardant additives, which included tris(1,3-dichloroisopropyl) phosphate (TDCPP), decabromodiphenyl ether (BDE-209), triphenyl phosphate, and tetrabromobisphenol-A. Flame retardant concentrations were discovered to be as high as 37.5 mg/g (3.8% by weight) in the tent fabric samples, and TDCPP and BDE-209 were the most frequently detected in these samples. We also observed a significant association between TDCPP levels in tent wipes and those in paired hand wipes, suggesting that human contact with the tent fabric material leads to the transfer of the flame retardant to the skin surface and human exposure. These results suggest that direct contact with flame retardant-treated textiles may be a source of exposure."

I'm not sure if exposure of the chemicals with the skin is enough to cause damage (would like to see more research/information on that), but even if one did have to "eat the chemical" as the Coleman representative said, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to think one could set up a tent and then have hand to mouth contact. One could lick their hand, wipe sweat off their face and touch their mouth, wipe their mouth, wipe their hands on their face near their mouth, eat food with unwashed hands after setup, spread that chemical from their hand to anything that would reach their mouth or any other orifice before the hands were washed, etc. And also I don't 100% trust the salesman on it only being dangerous if eaten, he of course is trying to sell me a product that he is forced by law to use the chemicals on, he has no other real choice but to try and sell the product as well as he can, whether or not it is dangerous, because the law tells him in order to make money on tents you have to use these dangerous chemicals. If I were him I would try and convince my company to fight these laws in regards to the safety of their customers, but that's a whole different discussion.

Also, as a side note toedtoes, Canada is not an option when it comes to buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals, they actually put new laws in place in 2011 that require 20% more chemicals now to be added when making a product flame resistant.

This post is super long and I'm going to be incredibly appreciative of anyone who even reads the whole thing in the first place, but now that I've stated all of this, my 2 questions again are:

1.) Does anyone have any fact based reasons (statements from studies or articles or official statements from any of these tent manufacturers) on why we should not worry about the chemicals being used in the production of tents in the US?

2.) Does anyone know of any companies in the US that sell tents with no flame retardant chemicals used?

I fully acknowledge that I may be completely wrong in my assessments here when it comes to the danger of using a tent made in this country, especially since there seems to not be much of a stink being made. This is why I am posting here, believe me I would love for someone to prove me wrong.

Again thanks for any replies or insight into this discussion you may have.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

Here I thought the highest risk/exposure to death or serious injury during a weekend tent camping trip was the drive to/from the trailhead or campground. :confused:

[wecamp04]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

I agree with Hoosier that probably get you before something your tent is made of

[toedtoes]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

TAlso, as a side note toedtoes, Canada is not an option when it comes to buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals, they actually put new laws in place in 2011 that require 20% more chemicals now to be added when making a product flame resistant.

1.) Does anyone have any fact based reasons (statements from studies or articles or official statements from any of these tent manufacturers) on why we should not worry about the chemicals being used in the production of tents in the US?

2.) Does anyone know of any companies in the US that sell tents with no flame retardant chemicals used?

First, if you read my post, you'll see that I did not suggest ONLY Canada. If you cannot find something acceptable in Canada, then try Mexico, South America, Europe. Yes, the U.S. has laws regarding flame retardants - you'll be hard pressed to find something here that don't have them. So, that means you'll have to look elsewhere.

Honestly, it does not appear that you are open to using flame retardant tents. You state "I would love for someone to prove me wrong" - that indicates that you have already made up your mind about the subject and that you do not find using flame retardant tents acceptable. That's fine - that's your choice, your decision and is based on things that you have determined to be legitimate sources.

However, it also makes this discussion pretty much empty. Nothing someone else says will sway your mind if your mind is already set. You have found several websites (all of which are anti-chemical websites) that tell you what you want to hear.

Your options are limited. Buy outside of the U.S.; look into untreated canvas tents (apparently they do exist, however they are more susceptible to mold); look into solutions for off-gassing tents (from what I read, it can take several years to properly off-gas); or look into making your own tent/tipi solution.

I don't think anyone hear can provide you with any more specific info.

[James.]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

*sigh*

[abby.smith]

Re: Buying a tent with no flame retardant chemicals

Sounds interesting!