Cool to Cold Weather Camping

[a65hoosier]

Hey fellow campers!

It is approaching that time of the year when the temps fall along with the leaves. I am in the process of planning a mid to late October car camping trip with the spouse. This will be to a Indiana state park. No electric site. Temps can swing wildly in Indiana this time of year with avg highs in the low 60's and avg lows around 40. I remember taking the kids trick or treating in shorts/t-shirts one year and having to wear a winter coat the next, so I am planning for the extreme...just in case.

I have already purchased a decent 4 season, 4 man tent. I use a tarp underneath the tent to protect it and I am planning on using a couple of wool blankets on the floor inside to both protect the floor and provide a warmer place for our feet.




We have 2 Coleman Autumn Trail sleeping bags which are rated down to 20 degrees. We've used these for a couple of years, but the lowest temp usage was down to about 50 degrees...they did fine and we used an air mattress (with a wool blanket on top of the mattress). We won't be using our air mattresses on this trip.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J2GUTK/...R6X309JX&psc=1



We will be supplementing the sleeping bags with a fleece sleeping bag liner (if necessary) and we have polypropylene underwear we will change into at night (again, if necessary). Add in a fleece hat or a balaclava for our heads.

For this trip and this time of year, I decided the air mattress might not be warm enough. Luckily, my dear spouse redeemed some points she had earned at work for gift cards and we purchased a couple of Therm-a-rest LuxuryMap self-inflating insulated mattresses. R value on these is 6.8. These will be part of our new "sleeping system":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



I have researched various forum threads for some additional advice and still have some questions:

Will I need to get a closed cell pad to use under the Therm-a-rest? Or is that overkill based on the temps I expect to experience?

Even though the tent has breathable inner fabric and 3 top vents and 3 lower vents, I still worry about the water vapor from our breath collecting and freezing inside the tent...and having it come down like snow on us in the morning when it is disturbed....I have read that some folks use a candle lantern lit overnight to help mitigate this condition (I am worried about leaving a candle going all night though inside the tent---maybe put it in the vestibule where it wouldn't be disturbed or drip wax down on us?). Does anyone have any experience with candle lanterns? Good, bad?

I thought about getting a Mr Buddy...but again...I am worried about CO2 and not waking up. Maybe use it just to take the chill out at night and again in the morning? Does that help prevent condensation? Or will it just melt any condensation that formed...and instead of tent snow we'll get tent rain?

Plan on eating well and doing a walk prior to retiring for the night to make sure our metabolisms are running on high. Bathroom break prior to bedtime. We have a Luggable Loo that we'll be bringing so at least a "midnight calling" doesn't mean exiting the tent.

Is there anything else in my planning that I have forgotten to consider or account for as to cool/cold weather camping? Any suggestions from the cold weather tent camping veterans? Thanks everyone.

Brian - a65hoosier

[MacGyver]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

I can't speak to the effectiveness of the candle lantern but I will advise you to rethink the Mr. Heater. They require a lot of clearance both in front and over the heater. A 4 man tent won't give you the height you need and it'll wind up way too close to someone's sleeping bag. My Kodiak is 10 x 10 and the heater is so hot that I don't know that I'd be comfortable using it if I was to have a queen size mattress in it.

[tplife]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

A closed cell-foam pad under the ThermaRest is certainly overkill - 5.0 Rvalue or higher is neutral and you're on the sweet side of that. I can't say if the Mr. Heater would work or not, but I would agree with Macgyver that for a 4-man tent, it may give off TOO much heat and not be adjustable enough - we've had luck with small quartz heaters in a 4-man but they require electric. We use a Coleman NorthStar lantern at night to warm up the interior while we unwind with card games. When we hit the sack, we turn the propane lantern off and that's it. If it's really cold in the morning, we can relight the lantern, but we've never bothered with it in the morning as the sun warms the campsite. Maybe a smaller version of a Buddy heater or a catalytic heater would also warm the interior, but I don't trust these devices if used overnight unless they were electric (emission-free).

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

I can't speak to the effectiveness of the candle lantern but I will advise you to rethink the Mr. Heater. They require a lot of clearance both in front and over the heater. A 4 man tent won't give you the height you need and it'll wind up way too close to someone's sleeping bag. My Kodiak is 10 x 10 and the heater is so hot that I don't know that I'd be comfortable using it if I was to have a queen size mattress in it.

Good advice...I was also looking at the little buddy...but it has no adjustability. When it's on, it's on. And even at 3800 btu, it still may be too hot. I'm the one thinking about pre-warming the tent before crawling out in the morning. I always get up first and make the coffee...my wife says I can bring her a hot mugful inside the tent when it's ready. lol

[wiiawiwb]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

An r-Value of 5.0 is thermoneutral at 32F. I would bring something to put below it. Call me crazy.

A CCF pad has an r-Value of .9. It's light. Personally, I always put a pad beneath my mattress especially if car camping. Why not?

If you are backpacking, which you clearly are not, then you decide to forego weight and roll the dice. If packing the car....why take a chance of being uncomfortable?

I have a ThermaRest RidgeRest Solar which I put below my Exped Synmat UL 9 mattress if there is any chance of cold conditions.

[hwc1954]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

A three inch Thermarest should be plenty of insulation. I used a ThermaRest NeoAir pad down near 40 a few weeks ago (nowhere near the insulation of your pads -- no foam, just air channels) and was fine. That's probably near my limit with the NeoAir.

I wear base layer top and bottoms whenever temps are below 60 degrees. Nice to have something warm enough to step outside the tent. Hoody top, so I can cover my head, but I've also used a fleece beanie. With the base layer PJs, a very light summer down bag (rated to 40 degrees) has been fine. Normally, I just use it as a quilt on top, but with temps near 40, I did actually zip it up and crawl in.

With your fleece bag liners, you should be fine. You can always throw a comforter or extra blankets in the car for insurance.

With two people in a 4 person tent, I don't think you'll have condensation issues, unless you get extreme weather (30s and raining). Leave the top vents open. Bottom vents if it's not too cold.

[MacGyver]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

Got a guy in my group who swears by the 1/2" thick foam tiles you can get just about anywhere (Home Depot, Lowe's, Big Lots). I'm thinking about doing that myself, except I'm looking online where I've seen 3/4" tiles.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

A closed cell-foam pad under the ThermaRest is certainly overkill - 5.0 Rvalue or higher is neutral and you're on the sweet side of that. I can't say if the Mr. Heater would work or not, but I would agree with Macgyver that for a 4-man tent, it may give off TOO much heat and not be adjustable enough - we've had luck with small quartz heaters in a 4-man but they require electric. We use a Coleman NorthStar lantern at night to warm up the interior while we unwind with card games. When we hit the sack, we turn the propane lantern off and that's it. If it's really cold in the morning, we can relight the lantern, but we've never bothered with it in the morning as the sun warms the campsite. Maybe a smaller version of a Buddy heater or a catalytic heater would also warm the interior, but I don't trust these devices if used overnight unless they were electric (emission-free).

I have brought a small ceramic heater with us in the past if the temps were expected to dip, just to take out the chill. Unfortunately, as you noted, not an option on this trip. I do like your idea of using a propane lantern as you described to warm things up a bit inside before we retire for the night. Not sure why I didn't think of that. I switched over to Coleman fuel powered stoves and lanterns several years ago, but I might have to pull the propane lantern off the shelf and take it along this trip. Though I love my vintage Coleman fuel powered lanterns, even my best running ones let off a stronger smell than a propane powered lantern. Esp on start up and shut down.

And yea, I am in that group that feels uncomfortable having anything "burning" or heating while I am asleep. Even when we brought the electric heater, it would get shut-off and unplugged when we turned in for the night.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

An r-Value of 5.0 is thermoneutral at 32F. I would bring something to put below it. Call me crazy.

A CCF pad has an r-Value of .9. It's light. Personally, I always put a pad beneath my mattress especially if car camping. Why not?

If you are backpacking, which you clearly are not, then you decide to forego weight and roll the dice. If packing the car....why take a chance of being uncomfortable?

I have a ThermaRest RidgeRest Solar which I put below my Exped Synmat UL 9 mattress if there is any chance of cold conditions.

I've been pondering this also...was hoping the additional wool blankets on the floor might provide some first line barrier to the cold ground. But closed cell pads are not overly expensive and readily available (I'm thinking cheap ones-lol), so I might grab a couple right before the trip depending on the weather forecast (lol....all this cold weather planning and I'll end up with an October heatwave during my trip). I do have room to pack them...and a happy warm wife means she'll be onboard for another trip. Then again, I hate to overpack and buy stuff that might not get used to the fullest.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

A three inch Thermarest should be plenty of insulation. I used a ThermaRest NeoAir pad down near 40 a few weeks ago (nowhere near the insulation of your pads -- no foam, just air channels) and was fine. That's probably near my limit with the NeoAir.

I wear base layer top and bottoms whenever temps are below 60 degrees. Nice to have something warm enough to step outside the tent. Hoody top, so I can cover my head, but I've also used a fleece beanie. With the base layer PJs, a very light summer down bag (rated to 40 degrees) has been fine. Normally, I just use it as a quilt on top, but with temps near 40, I did actually zip it up and crawl in.

With your fleece bag liners, you should be fine. You can always throw a comforter or extra blankets in the car for insurance.

With two people in a 4 person tent, I don't think you'll have condensation issues, unless you get extreme weather (30s and raining). Leave the top vents open. Bottom vents if it's not too cold.

Thanks for the info hwc1954. I think I will be ok with what I am currently planning on bringing. But I may tinker with the plan depending on how the forecast shapes up. The unknown variable is my wife...she is a cold sleeper. I'm the guy with the blankets thrown off or the foot zipper on the bag unzipped so I can get some air...while she's bundled up to her chin. I guess that is why I am soliciting advice...either to confirm my thoughts or reconsider/revise them. Like everyone...I just want a smooth pleasant camp trip.

Thanks for the info on condensation...never really had a problem with it, but I have never really camped this late in the year. I know we're both looking forward to getting away. No kids on this trip...it's been a long long time since that has occurred.

[Mike]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

To me, it sounds like all the bedding you have prepared is plenty. No need for a heater and no need for more padding under your already thick sleeping bag, Thermarest, and wool blankets.

No heater needed in the tent. If you plan on having a campfire, that will keep you warm when you are outside the tent at camp. Another no-campfire cold weather trick is to put a large warm blanket or two blankets over the picnic table that drapes to the ground. Put a catalytic heater under the table. So, you sit at the picnic table, put your legs under that blanket, and your legs and waist stay warm. In Japan, they call this Kotatsu. If you do this, you can have a candle or lanterns on the table and you don't need a campfire.

Concerning using a candle lantern inside the tent to deal with condensation inside the tent, it is likely that you might have read one of my posts here or another forum. Yes, this works pretty well. I camp where temps drop to -40 degrees. At those extremes, the candle lantern helps, but not quite 100%. If you are camping at about zero temps, it will work very well as long as the material of your tent will allow steam vapors to escape. If the temps are not so low that you can keep a door or panel of the tent open for ventilation, then the candle lantern is not needed.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

To me, it sounds like all the bedding you have prepared is plenty. No need for a heater and no need for more padding under your already thick sleeping bag, Thermarest, and wool blankets.

No heater needed in the tent. If you plan on having a campfire, that will keep you warm when you are outside the tent at camp. Another no-campfire cold weather trick is to put a large warm blanket or two blankets over the picnic table that drapes to the ground. Put a catalytic heater under the table. So, you sit at the picnic table, put your legs under that blanket, and your legs and waist stay warm. In Japan, they call this Kotatsu. If you do this, you can have a candle or lanterns on the table and you don't need a campfire.

Concerning using a candle lantern inside the tent to deal with condensation inside the tent, it is likely that you might have read one of my posts here or another forum. Yes, this works pretty well. I camp where temps drop to -40 degrees. At those extremes, the candle lantern helps, but not quite 100%. If you are camping at about zero temps, it will work very well as long as the material of your tent will allow steam vapors to escape. If the temps are not so low that you can keep a door or panel of the tent open for ventilation, then the candle lantern is not needed.

Mike - thanks for chiming in. I have read quite a few of your posts...you do camp in very cold conditions-and sled your gear. Doubt I will ever get to that point. But....words of experience are words to heed. Yes, the candle lantern idea I believe you wrote about somewhere previously on this board-I just couldn't remember where/when I had seen it (I do a lot of searching on this board for info). Do you ever have any trouble with them-wax dripping down, the candle not automatically raising, etc? Do you own a UCO?

And man, I like that Kotatsu idea. Never heard of it, but it sounds simple...and effective. Even with a campfire...like when we're playing cards/board games at the table. Would keep us outside instead of huddling in the tent. I do have an older ( 1970's style) Coleman catalytic heater I can use, used once by a friend and he passed it along to me. I haven't used it but once or twice, and not in ages, but I might give it a go. It's such a bugger to start/heat up.

Lots of thoughts here. Need to figure out which method or methods I want to take along this trip.

[Denni2]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

We are in Northeast Indiana so I know the temperature fluctuation. October is our favorite time to camp. This is how we keep warm at night. Thermarest Z Lite pads for extra insulation and the design of the Z Lite keeps moisture from being pulled from the ground to the floor of the tent. On the Z Lites we use Thermarest Trail Pros covered in a sheet. We use a sheet between us and the sleeping bag which we use more like a blanket. We have 2 bags one 20 deqrees and one 35 degrees but rarely zip the sleeping bags together. We also have a wool blanket if needed. We sleep in PJ's and we wear wool stocking caps and wool socks. I have lined my cap with a satin sleep cap. Your wife my like the sleep cap, it helps with warmth and saves my hair from getting to much static.

We keep a small battery operated fan pointed to the ceiling running at night to keep condensation from collecting in the tent. We always run the fan at night, it helps in the summer also. We keep hand warmers in the tent in case it gets too cold, but have never had to use them in the sleeping bag.I have used them in my inside pockets of my jacket to keep warm.

I can't bring myself to use a heater or any kind of fire in the tent.I wouldn't be able to sleep.

We also have a Luggable Loo and love not having to runacross the campground at night.

[a65hoosier]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

We are in Northeast Indiana so I know the temperature fluctuation. October is our favorite time to camp. This is how we keep warm at night. Thermarest Z Lite pads for extra insulation and the design of the Z Lite keeps moisture from being pulled from the ground to the floor of the tent. On the Z Lites we use Thermarest Trail Pros covered in a sheet. We use a sheet between us and the sleeping bag which we use more like a blanket. We have 2 bags one 20 deqrees and one 35 degrees but rarely zip the sleeping bags together. We also have a wool blanket if needed. We sleep in PJ's and we wear wool stocking caps and wool socks. I have lined my cap with a satin sleep cap. Your wife my like the sleep cap, it helps with warmth and saves my hair from getting to much static.

We keep a small battery operated fan pointed to the ceiling running at night to keep condensation from collecting in the tent. We always run the fan at night, it helps in the summer also. We keep hand warmers in the tent in case it gets too cold, but have never had to use them in the sleeping bag.I have used them in my inside pockets of my jacket to keep warm.

I can't bring myself to use a heater or any kind of fire in the tent.I wouldn't be able to sleep.

We also have a Luggable Loo and love not having to runacross the campground at night.

Denni2 - Nice set-up. I think we're trying to move to a more fall/spring camp time and October is a good time in IN. It's also our first try. Less crowds, bugs...and we get away from summer's 85 degree muggy no air movement nights.

I will pass along the satin sleep cap lining the hat idea to my wife. I have a feeling it will be an idea she will try. (she has longer hair and some mornings...well...yea...there's static).

We use a battery op fan during the summer....it would improve air circulation in fall. Doesn't hurt to bring it and give it a try. lol...I thought I was going to pack lighter without the kids. Doesn't sound that way. hehe

We have those warmers also. I keep a few in my backpack which I always take with me (it has first aid kit, etc.). We have used them in our pockets....but only sitting around outside watching kids games.

In tents (and outside) - I still don't like unattended burning...of anything. My dad was a fireman and I spent a lot of my youth at the firehouse with him. Learned a lot. Shot a lot of pool there too.

I originally bought the Loo for my wife. That...and so I didn't have to accompany her across the campground in the middle of the night. Over time, though, it is handy and it ended up being a winner for both of us. For $20...yes, not a bad piece of "gear". lol

[Mike]

Re: Cool to Cold Weather Camping

Mike - thanks for chiming in. I have read quite a few of your posts...you do camp in very cold conditions-and sled your gear. Doubt I will ever get to that point. But....words of experience are words to heed. Yes, the candle lantern idea I believe you wrote about somewhere previously on this board-I just couldn't remember where/when I had seen it (I do a lot of searching on this board for info). Do you ever have any trouble with them-wax dripping down, the candle not automatically raising, etc? Do you own a UCO?

And man, I like that Kotatsu idea. Never heard of it, but it sounds simple...and effective. Even with a campfire...like when we're playing cards/board games at the table. Would keep us outside instead of huddling in the tent. I do have an older ( 1970's style) Coleman catalytic heater I can use, used once by a friend and he passed it along to me. I haven't used it but once or twice, and not in ages, but I might give it a go. It's such a bugger to start/heat up.

Lots of thoughts here. Need to figure out which method or methods I want to take along this trip.

You will like the Kotatsu. You can use the wool blankets that you are already bringing. The old Coleman Catalytic heater works PERFECT for this. Leave a little venting for O2 to get in to feed the heater. Remember, those old Coleman heaters use Coleman fuel only. I have worked hard and long with other fuels, but only Coleman fuel works. For whatever reason, they work best if you start them with a full tank. That is about a full gallon of fuel, but it will burn nearly 8 hours. By far cheaper than a Little Buddy propane heater considering the BTU produced and the burn time. To prime, tip upside down and let a silver dollar size stain form on the dome. THEN upright the Coleman and set on the ground, douse the dome with Coleman fuel in a big X on the dome. Stand back and light. WHOOSH. That usually does the trick. If not in the first try, then the second for sure.

Does the Tea Light Candle drip? Yes, it does if you bump it. Let me say that I use a tea candle lantern that encases the candle. I do not worry about the flame. When you drop them, they douse quickly and I do not think they are a safety concern. However, they will get wax on the stuff in your tent. You can get the wax off by putting newspaper or paper bag on the wax spot and ironing. The wax melts into the paper. Works like a charm on just about everything. Do not use candles with any aroma added. Clean candles are fine, but the fragrant candles burn your eyes and throat if you use them in a tent. The tea candles will add significant warmth to the tent. I tried to do a search on the BTU, but too much contradicting info on the web. I will just say that it will be noticable warmth.