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  • Full Circle after 50+ years

    Hello all! I'm new to the site, but have been an avid camper for decades. Began tent camping as a child in the 1950's through the 80s. Over the past few years my wonderful, outdoorsy wife and I have gone from pop-ups to a 34' MH (hated that one). Went from the MH to a 25' travel trailer (loved it, but was not what we wanted). Dropped down to a pop-up, slide-in truck camper, which just hurt and was a pain in the butt. Now we are back to where we both started, tent camping.

    We realized on our last few trips, with both the trailer and the slide-in that we spent most of our time in the canopy screen room. With the slide-in, we also brought along a 14 x 8 ' tent, where we would go if the weather got more than a drizzle, but not a storm, to read or whatever. The slide-in was used if the weather got really bad (and it really did a few times) or we wanted to watch something on the laptop. So 90% of the time in the screen room, 5% in the tent, 5% in the camper. Camper lost out.

    So here we are back. We like our tent, we can set it up in about 10 minutes. Canopy takes maybe 15 minutes. All the various crap I bring to make camping comfy (hey, I'm in my 60s now and want comfort :-) ) take another hour to set up. Over the years I've built a bunch of things and added things to make outdoors more homey for us. Solar system, inverter, an icemaker (no kidding, small and works great), queen sized neverflat air mattress that runs off the 12v system. Oh, and lest I forget, on demand hot water.

    Yep, no backpacking for this old disabled guy, but my pickup gets us to the places we want to be. We like off the grid and are set up to do it.

    So hello to all and thank you for allowing us to join your fine group. You guys have some great ideas!

    dave and regina

  • #2
    Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

    Sounds like you've found the right balance for yourselves. I really like my wall tent and dome tent, though am thinking about a smallish camper trailer. It may end up being a teardrop, for travel economy, and for initial expense (I can probably build one). The pic below also has some bearing on the teardrop idea. I also like a LOT of comfort stuff for tent camping. The luxury/comfort items you mentioned are interesting. I've seen some very cool vehicle and small trailer projects on the Expedition Portal forum, like hot water, slide or fold out kitchens, and power systems.

    As much as I enjoy my tent though, one aspect in my neighborhood that comes up at times, and in certain areas,...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

      Originally posted by Malamute View Post

      As much as I enjoy my tent though, one aspect in my neighborhood that comes up at times, and in certain areas,...

      That is a scary sign, but I wonder how many bear attacks happen with bears going into tents and attacking people.

      My dad had bears come into his tent about 60 years ago. Bears came into his PUP TENT... grabbed his food pack, and hauled it out to consume it on the spot. THey shredded the metal cans that were inside. Lesson learned: Don't bring your food pack inside the tent.

      Realistically, I am not convinced that an aluminum "canned ham" trailer is going to keep out a hungry bear. I have seen bears tear the solid wood doors with steel hinges off of cottages to get inside.

      For that matter, if you aren't safe inside a tent, you sure aren't safe walking around either. I wonder who came up with this silly rule about no tent camping because of bears.... if you aren't safe in tent, you aren't safe period, don't you think?

      Tent or trailer, don't keep your food where you sleep and certainly don't eat where you sleep!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

        The incidents of grizzly attacks upon a human in a campsite is exceedingly rare. It has happened, and did so Gallatin Nat'l Forest in 2010 resulting in a human death, but I don't know how any conclusions of tenting and danger can be drawn from it.

        There are rogue bears and there are rogue pitbulls. Pitbulls alone kill 4 times more humans than black bear, grizzly and polar bears combined. We still walk our streets.
        Moss Big Dipper
        Alaskan Guide 8
        Alaskan Guide 6
        NorthFace Tadpole 23
        ALPS Exteme 3
        Six Moon Designs Lunar Two

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

          Thanks all for comments. I forgot to add that my truck has a topper/shell and I'm building a platform bed for it. Thus if we are in locations where you cannot sleep in a tent or the weather really goes to hell, then we can pop into the truck bed...just like what we did in the slide in.

          Lots of people are saying we are doing this "downsizing" because I'm cheap. I am, but that really isn't the reason. We're doing it for the combined reasons of comfort/ease/access and to a small extent price. Yes 4mpg MH sucked. The trailer went to 12mpg. Slide-in brought it up to 15. But my truck only gets 18mpg at best.

          Yes, the big Bounder and then the trailer were essentially ready to go. But if it is a real hassle to drive to locations or is crazy expensive to do so (4 mpg is a horror at the pump), then we asked ourselves what are we gaining in the comfort side? Unlike many with the big rigs, we do not stay inside.

          I'm not a minimalist by any means, actually kind of the opposite. I'm a do-it-yourselfer who likes toys. I like going where the crowds don't go or can't. I may be older and disabled, but I'll take looking out on the valley below Muley Point over Judge Judy any day. :-) I'm usually good for about 2 months at home before we need to hit the road for a month.

          Enough about me. Once again, thank you all for allowing me to join your fine community.

          dave

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

            Yes, bear attacks are rare, however they are more common now than in the past. The tent thing is a problem, it takes little effort for a bear to get into a tent, a hard side camper, yes its possible, but takes more work and time. I don't recall any attacks of bears getting into campers.

            There have been several attacks on people in tents, the most recent was in a campground near Yellowstone (same one as a previous attack). The bear was a sow grizzly with cubs. She attacked 3 tents, caused a general ruckus in the campground, and it was discovered that she had in fact killed and partially eaten the guy in one of the tents. Common? No. It happened though. I think the odds mean little to the guy that was eaten (or the other people attacked in their tents). I think its the stakes, not the odds to keep in mind. I believe the investigation showed people had used the bear box food containers at the campgrounds properly, and no food was found in any of the tents in question. Another attack was in daylight in the Park, it was a fatality also, though I'd put my money on being awake and in daylight as to overall safety and ability to react. In the dark and asleep, you have little time or ability to react before contact. I don't have much concern hiking around in daylight in grizzly country.

            Most of the country I have to get out in is grizzly country. Their range has expanded dramatically over the years, they've been found out of the mountains more frequently and farther distances as time goes on, a few bears have been seen/caught 20 miles or so from the mountains. Even sagebrush country near mountains is not unusual to find bears in now.

            When in bear areas, I've camped many many times in a tent or out on the ground under the stars without a problem. The bear population has been growing over the years I've been around, and I'm now seriously wanting a hard side camper. They aren't bear proof, but do change the equation, besides being required in some places and times. The sign I posted the pic of wasn't in a developed campground, just on a two track dirt road that I like to hang around, bird hunt, hike and occasionally camp at. I very rarely use developed campgrounds, but several I've seen are permanently posted as hard side only now.

            Was the attack in the Gallatin at the Soda Butte campground?

            The pitbulls analogy doesn't really have any bearing on tent camping in grizzly country. I still camp in grizzly country also, and my reaction to an attack by either would be similar. I agree its probably safer camping in grizzly country, but I can choose how I do it and change the risk factors in some ways.
            Last edited by Malamute; 07-30-2014, 08:45 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

              Originally posted by Malamute View Post
              Sounds like you've found the right balance for yourselves. I really like my wall tent and dome tent, though am thinking about a smallish camper trailer. It may end up being a teardrop, for travel economy, and for initial expense (I can probably build one). The pic below also has some bearing on the teardrop idea. I also like a LOT of comfort stuff for tent camping. The luxury/comfort items you mentioned are interesting. I've seen some very cool vehicle and small trailer projects on the Expedition Portal forum, like hot water, slide or fold out kitchens, and power systems.

              As much as I enjoy my tent though, one aspect in my neighborhood that comes up at times, and in certain areas,...

              Haha. Signs warning of danger are usually little more than suggestions to me. Something to chuckle at because the general public lacks common sense and self accountability. This sign however, would not only get my attention but would probably get me to turn back.

              There is definitely a difference between tent and camper camping from a safety standpoint. It may just be a matter of minutes but they could be the important minutes.
              “I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority.”
              – E. B. White

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                I did some reading on bears and RVs and such when I first started camping again - wanted to follow rules and didn't know how "bear proof container" fit in with "hard-sided RV". What I read said that basically bears identify certain things with food especially coolers and campsites. However, they don't usually connect vehicles or RVs with food. So, unless they smell food in the vehicle/RV OR they see food or a cooler in the vehicle/RV, they will usually leave it be.

                The reason for banning soft-sided RVs and tents at certain campgrounds is because the bears there have started to connect RVs and tents with food and are likely to investigate. Soft-sided RVs are more dangerous than even tents because people will cook in the RV right where they are sleeping.

                As to my original "bear proof container" question, I found that an RV is usually acceptable as "bear proof" as long as you take precautions to minimize cooking smells and residue smells and keep food hidden from view.
                “One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of scientists, a goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.” - James D. Watson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                  Originally posted by James. View Post
                  There is definitely a difference between tent and camper camping from a safety standpoint. It may just be a matter of minutes but they could be the important minutes.
                  And that's the money quote of the day.


                  In some places, bear resistant food containers are even required for backpackers, just hanging the food bag in a tree isnt enough. I think the Park Service, and likely some private camping gear suppliers rent them or supply them for trips. Hotwires are used in some backcountry camps, portable setups are available, though I've never had to do that. It's pretty funny watching the bears at the Bear center in west Yellowstone around the test fences and when they try things out with them, they REALLY don't like to get zapped.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv2G-aRDvyY

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                    Wow, interesting stuff. Anyone use an electric fence while camping?
                    “I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority.”
                    – E. B. White

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                      There probably aren't that many areas that really need them, though I've heard of outfitters using them in Alaska and in some of the backcountry in the Rockies in grizzly country. Some places are a day or two on horseback to get out into their areas. I'd consider one if horse packing into some of the places I've day hiked into.

                      The vid was made by Nols, it sounds like they use them. I think they are primarily doing backpacking trips.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                        Since we've already sidetracked the original post/thread,....Caravanserai, did you take your name from Loreena McKennitts song?

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QpRCK1IbiE

                        She does some nice stuff, The Mummers Dance is one of my favorites.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                          Most of the campgrounds I stay at require bear proof containers for tent and car campers. They also all provide food lockers at the sites. Once while I was camping, a family had gone to bed in their tents and the young girls had left their juice boxes on the picnic table - that night, they got a friendly visit with a bear. No injury and the bear was chased away, but it was amazing how quickly he hit as soon as something was left out. We may not see them, but they're watching and smelling and waiting for an opportunity.
                          “One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of scientists, a goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.” - James D. Watson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                            Originally posted by Malamute View Post
                            Yes, bear attacks are rare, however they are more common now than in the past. The tent thing is a problem, it takes little effort for a bear to get into a tent, a hard side camper, yes its possible, but takes more work and time. I don't recall any attacks of bears getting into campers.

                            There have been several attacks on people in tents, the most recent was in a campground near Yellowstone (same one as a previous attack). The bear was a sow grizzly with cubs. She attacked 3 tents, caused a general ruckus in the campground, and it was discovered that she had in fact killed and partially eaten the guy in one of the tents. Common? No. It happened though. I think the odds mean little to the guy that was eaten (or the other people attacked in their tents). I think its the stakes, not the odds to keep in mind. I believe the investigation showed people had used the bear box food containers at the campgrounds properly, and no food was found in any of the tents in question. Another attack was in daylight in the Park, it was a fatality also, though I'd put my money on being awake and in daylight as to overall safety and ability to react. In the dark and asleep, you have little time or ability to react before contact. I don't have much concern hiking around in daylight in grizzly country.

                            Most of the country I have to get out in is grizzly country. Their range has expanded dramatically over the years, they've been found out of the mountains more frequently and farther distances as time goes on, a few bears have been seen/caught 20 miles or so from the mountains. Even sagebrush country near mountains is not unusual to find bears in now.

                            When in bear areas, I've camped many many times in a tent or out on the ground under the stars without a problem. The bear population has been growing over the years I've been around, and I'm now seriously wanting a hard side camper. They aren't bear proof, but do change the equation, besides being required in some places and times. The sign I posted the pic of wasn't in a developed campground, just on a two track dirt road that I like to hang around, bird hunt, hike and occasionally camp at. I very rarely use developed campgrounds, but several I've seen are permanently posted as hard side only now.

                            Was the attack in the Gallatin at the Soda Butte campground?

                            The pitbulls analogy doesn't really have any bearing on tent camping in grizzly country. I still camp in grizzly country also, and my reaction to an attack by either would be similar. I agree its probably safer camping in grizzly country, but I can choose how I do it and change the risk factors in some ways.
                            The attack you talk about is the one I referenced earlier in my post.

                            People have camped in tents for hundreds of years during times when grizzly numbers were in much greater numbers than today. Inexperienced campers who read this forum might get the impression that the only way to enjoy the outdoors in grizzly territory is with a 80' camper with 1"-thick steel plates. That's just not correct.

                            People can have a fantastic time tenting as long as they avail themselves of the precautions they need to address. The statistical odds of a human death from a bear is extraordinarily low. I'm confident it is even lower amongst those who are familiar with bear behavior.

                            A bear mauling and death gets such media attention because it's not unusual for a bear to feast on a human after killing him/her. It is a primal fear to be eaten. Enter, the movie Jaws.

                            I mentioned pitbulls simply to highlight how few people are killed each year from bears. Horses kill 40 times more humans than do bears. Cows/bulls kill 6 times as many humans. Spiders, 13 times. And on and on and on.

                            People who venture out in bear country should read Dr. Stephen Herrero's book, Bear Attacks; Their Causes and Avoidance. He's the leading expert of bears in North America. They should also know what predacious behavior looks like, in both brown and black bear, and how to address it. Even when one knows what signs to look for, and how to avoid an encounter, there's always just bad luck.

                            I was reading about a hiker who just happened to be in an area where a grizzly had been tranquilized. He strolled through the area after the bear reawakened and the grizzly charged and killed him. Just the wrong place at the wrong time.
                            Moss Big Dipper
                            Alaskan Guide 8
                            Alaskan Guide 6
                            NorthFace Tadpole 23
                            ALPS Exteme 3
                            Six Moon Designs Lunar Two

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Full Circle after 50+ years

                              I actually think that tent camping might be safer than pop-up trailer/camper camping because people will be more careful about food when using a tent. I think it's easy for folks to forget that a pop-up doesn't have any more security than a tent - a knife or claw can just as easily rip one open as well as the other - and so they are more likely to leave food out in the pop-up.

                              The only attacks I know on hard-sided campers was because the person was feeding the bear...
                              “One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of scientists, a goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.” - James D. Watson

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